In Friday’s LinkSwarm, we covered how Sig Saur’s problem with uncommanded discharges from the P320 got still more serious with the death of an Air Force airman. This has been a low-level, intermittent story that’s been bubbling on for many years now, with no root cause anyone could find for the problem.
Well, we may finally have the root cause.
But first the caveat: I am not a gunsmith, and I have no way to determine how plausible the explanation is, if the methodology is sound, or if the applies to a significant number of P320s rather than the one the YouTuber is testing.
Executive Summary: YouTuber Wyoming Gun Project was able to get repeated P320 discharges by putting one millimeter of pressure (not a full pull) on the trigger and manipulating the overly loose slide.
That should not happen.
If you just want to skip to the money shot, skip to the beginning of the second video. But first up, I have Forgotten Weapons’ Ian McCollum describing the issue in detail with his usual clarity. (I don’t think he had seen Wyoming Gun Project’s video before recording this.)
“Things have changed again for Sig with the death of a US Air Force serviceman, from apparently a P320 in its holster. Obviously, not good.”
“I think it has gotten to the point where Sig is now faced with a problem they cannot solve. They have two problems now. One of them in theory they can solve, and that is a hypothetical mechanical problem with the 320 that causes it to fire without someone pulling the trigger or commanding it to fire.”
I’m skipping over the part where he says that no root cause was found, because, again, this video came presumably out before he had a chance to see the Wyoming Gun Project video.
“There have been dozens of [P320] lawsuits, and only two of them have actually come back with Sig being found liable.”
“But even if they do fix it, they have a secondary problem right now that I don’t think is surmountable. They can theoretically fix the mechanical problem. What they cannot fix is the reputational issue.”
“The fundamental issue here is that the 320 doesn’t offer anything different from any of its competitors.” Shooters originally liked the modular design, but now lots of platforms do that, and now there are better choices in the same space. No institutional buyer is going to choose the P320 over competing choices now because the risk is too high.
“What does the SIG 320 offer us that would convince us to buy it despite this element of unknown potential risk? Nothing. That’s the problem.”
“There are actually three separate problems with the 320. Two of them absolutely 100% provable. The third one is still the jury’s out, literally and figuratively.”
“Problem number one was the drop safety. There was a legit drop safety problem with the original 320s. And it’s entirely Sig’s fault. They should have been more careful. That’s like, you know, it’s not like surprise drop safety. What? We didn’t even think about drop safety. No, they they should have been more careful.”
“And when the guns proved to have a drop safety fault, they didn’t recall them, presumably because that would have been super expensive even at that point. They offered a voluntary upgrade, which a lot of people didn’t get because they’re like, ‘Ah, my gun doesn’t need it. It’s fine. It’s voluntary. That means it’s not that important.’”
“Because that happened, Sig got into people’s heads, oh, that’s the gun that fires if you drop it. And it was true. I mean, within the limitations of the actual mechanical flaws of the drop safety.”
“The second issue is Sig did not put a trigger safety on the 320. Do you technically need it? No.” Presumably to differentiate on better trigger feel.
McCollum thinks that’s a mistake. “It’s not an issue with the trigger pull and it very much does prevent accidental discharges with holsters. If your holster is kind of wonky, if you get your shirt caught when you’re holstering the pistol. Absolutely a thing that can happen and that does happen and that a trigger safety will often prevent from turning into a fired gun.”
“I don’t know how many of their unintended discharge incidents are the result of something catching on the trigger and unintentionally pulling it, but I feel pretty safe assuming it’s greater than 0%. And so if they had a trigger safety on the gun, it would have prevented some percentage of these issues.”
Given the first two problems, shooters now just assume there’s a third, still unidentified flaw lurking in the gun.
“If you’re another gun company looking at this situation, I think one of the lessons to take away from it is you need to take safety seriously enough that you address it in positions where, you know, do we really need to hand like is this enough of a safety issue that we really need to do it? Maybe make sure that you’ve pushed that decision boundary pretty darn close to yes, we should always do something in favor of more safety in the design.”
“Could Sig survive recalling all the 320s that are out there? I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not.”
“Looking at the other guns that Sig has available, I think their best option would be to expand the P365 in scope and scale this thing out of production and replace it. You know, they’ve got the 365 macro, come up with like the 365 service issue size. The P365 is a fundamentally different mechanism than the 320.”
“The 320 is a development off the P250. And that’s probably where some of its problems originate from, if not all of them.”
Now the Wyoming Gun Project video:
It’s a 40 minute video, because he goes into significant detail on his methodology. So you get lots of caliper measurement, among other things.
“Basically we were able to input a millimeter or less of downward movement on the sear and get this slide by manipulating the slide. We’re able to get it to go off and actually fire a primed case five times in a row.”
That’s bad.
Measuring off the grip: “66.62mm was where the wall was. So that’s the start. That’s the end of the pre-travel, but the start of the actual trigger pull where we’re moving parts, right?”
65.69 is where he’s able to set the screw so that the striker will actuate by touching the slide.
“I’m not a math wiz, but that’s less than one millimeter. Less than one millimeter into the firing sequence and it just dropped the striker.”
“If this trigger, this trigger assembly in here is less than 1mm out of spec, you could have a potential problem.”
“That’s kind of simulating of it’s rolling around in a cop’s holster. Now, we saw the first one was less than a millimeter. So, if one of these parts is out of spec, less than a millimeter, or what if this is able to because this affects the trigger when you pull it back.”
The screw, which a lot of people have focused on, is to simulate the 1mm pull without having the inherent imprecision having an actual human finger there would introduce. “This is a tool to simulate to take the human factor out so that you same people that will come in my comments and say this aren’t going, ‘You pulled the trigger with your finger, bro.’ I didn’t. I didn’t. But I simulated a human taking up the pre-travel going through the firing motion or the firing sequence.”
“The FBI report said there was a ledge on, it was either the sear or the the striker hook, I don’t remember, and you pulled the trigger a little bit less than a millimeter, less than one millimeter, and it caught on that ledge and then you holstered your gun. Okay, this is a G-code holster. Then you holstered your gun, and it just went off.”
“So some people were like, ‘Put it in a holster and see if it goes off.’ There it is.”
I’m skipping over a lot of methodology walk-through here.
“There should be absolutely no way that you should be able to put input into the slide and it drops the striker. No way. There should be none.”
“Why, if you move the slide, will it set the sear off? If you’re halfway into the if you’re not even halfway less than a millimeter, less than one millimeter, and you bump the slide, and it has the potential to go off.”
He gets the gun to fire with the 1mm screw setting by manipulating the slide, and seems very surprised that he could do it.
“The striker safety is working. Look at that. The spring is working. Holy crap. Holy crap.”
Then he gets the P320 to go off again, under the same circumstances, four more times. “That was five in a row, guys. Five in a row. Is that consistent enough for some of the people out there? Do you want me to do it every day until Sig fixes the gun?”
While this is not quite “vice-gripped to a test mount on a granite slab table in an FBI safety lab” level quality control, it does indeed seem pretty repeatable. It’s a cascading failure where two separate things have to go wrong. But neither of those two separate things is some inconceivable, unlikely scenario.
Bonus video: Penguinz0 commenting on the situation, which is where I first heard about the Wyoming Gun Project video, and includes a lot of footage from that video, if you just want the Cliff Notes version.
“It’s a widely reported problem apparently linked to more than a hundred incidents since 2016, with at least 80 injuries.” Ouch! If those numbers are true, it seems this is a much wider-spread problem than I thought.
“Even in my neck of the woods here in Tampa, an officer in 2020 had the weapon fire while in his jacket while he was adjusting it.”
“I don’t think this is going to happen all the time to every P320 out there, but the fact that it can happen at all is concerning.”
